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ScottL
(@scottl)
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here it is

Free Radic Biol Med. 2001 Sep 15;31(6):745-53. Related Articles, Links

Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise.

Childs A, Jacobs C, Kaminski T, Halliwell B, Leeuwenburgh C.

Biochemistry of Aging Laboratory, Center for Exercice Science, College of Human Performance, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611, USA.

There has been no investigation to determine if the widely used over-the-counter, water-soluble antioxidants vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) could act as pro-oxidants in humans during inflammatory conditions. We induced an acute-phase inflammatory response by an eccentric arm muscle injury. The inflammation was characterized by edema, swelling, pain, and increases in plasma inflammatory indicators, myeloperoxidase and interleukin-6. Immediately following the injury, subjects consumed a placebo or vitamin C (12.5 mg/kg body weight) and NAC (10 mg/kg body weight) for 7 d. The resulting muscle injury caused increased levels of serum bleomycin-detectable iron and the amount of iron was higher in the vitamin C and NAC group. The concentrations of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), creatine kinase (CK), and myoglobin were significantly elevated 2, 3, and 4 d postinjury and returned to baseline levels by day 7. In addition, LDH and CK activities were elevated to a greater extent in the vitamin C and NAC group. Levels of markers for oxidative stress (lipid hydroperoxides and 8-iso prostaglandin F2alpha; 8-Iso-PGF2alpha) and antioxidant enzyme activities were also elevated post-injury. The subjects receiving vitamin C and NAC had higher levels of lipid hydroperoxides and 8-Iso-PGF2alpha 2 d after the exercise. This acute human inflammatory model strongly suggests that vitamin C and NAC supplementation immediately post-injury, transiently increases tissue damage and oxidative stress.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 11557312


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trouble
(@trouble)
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What is the take home message here?

How long should one abstain from taking anti-oxidants after a heavy workout?

What would be the effect if one were to take the antioxidants hours before a heavy workout - presumably, there would be an reduction in the amount of ROS and RNS (reactive nitric species) damage, correct?

Would this carry though the immediate period after a heavy workout?


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ScottL
(@scottl)
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Joined: 6 months ago
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Posted by: @trouble
What is the take home message here?

How long should one abstain from taking anti-oxidants after a heavy workout?

What would be the effect if one were to take the antioxidants hours before a heavy workout - presumably, there would be an reduction in the amount of ROS and RNS (reactive nitric species) damage, correct?

Would this carry though the immediate period after a heavy workout?

"What is the take home message here?"

We should all take it with our arachadonic acid for some really good gains

I don't know, that's why it was on my request list for spook to write about. If anyone understands this I'd love to hear it.


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ersatz
(@ersatz)
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Joined: 5 months ago
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Situations in where an aox acts as a pro-ox was in a hypoxic state, at least the ones I've read. Some studies show that taken pre they still act as an aox but others show taken pre and especially post they act as pro-ox. If there's a study showing one thing there's another to contradict it. I've seen conflicting reports on whether or not Idebenone can become a pro-ox for instance.


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trouble
(@trouble)
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I think we need a primer on redox couples, on isoprenoid formation of peroxides, and a little chit chat on NO and peroxy free radicals. How they are regulated, when they're an issue.

IF you had adequate protection (as this product would provide), your ass is covered when you cause muscle tissue micro-trauma from a workout (note, we're talking normal duration and effort - maximum, extended effort causes DOMs and thats a little different story. Then it might be prudent to use certain antioxidants that do not cause free radicals, as therapy to reduce the damage. If you don't use an antioxidant mixture (full redox couples in a few cases), then you don't want to e popping it with your protein drink afterwards, not according to the article cited above.

And no, idebenone is lacking that isoprenyl tail, eh? Instead, we just got a crooked alkane tail. Nary a double bond in sight, if I recollect.

Now you know why I asked (in the neurosciences section) about the efficacy of Idebenone in fitting in the Complex I binding site in mito inner membrane ...cause we got a few Ubiquinone substrate analog structure-function studies that say the tail makes for a tight binding cleft fit, but hey, maybe a little lower Kd (binding cofficient) aint all that bad if you nix the peroxide forming capacity of Q10, eh?

For the unaware, idebenone is a structural analog of ubiquinone.


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Raptor
(@raptor)
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I would make the following suggestions to the formulation of this product.

1. Replace vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid with 200 mg calcium ascorbate
2. Replace vitamin E acetate with vitamin E succinate
3. Replace Pyridoxine HCL with 1-2 mg pyridoxal-5-phosphate


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Phosphate Bond
(@phosphate-bond)
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Posted by: @Raptor
I would make the following suggestions to the formulation of this product.

1. Replace vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid with 200 mg calcium ascorbate
2. Replace vitamin E acetate with vitamin E succinate
3. Replace Pyridoxine HCL with 1-2 mg pyridoxal-5-phosphate

#2 How about Tocotrienols? Those seem like an interesting alternative to vitamin E. Actually they are more polyunsaturated forms of vitamin E that eventually get converted to tocopherol as they lose their double bonds.

Tocotrienols=polyunsaturated forms of tocopherols <-----(quick and dirty way of describing them)

AOR makes the best one I've seen. 125mg, 60 capsules $15. Yeah I know they are expensive but supposedly very powerful on a mg basis. Supposedly some forms can lower triglycerides too.

P.S. I'm not sure if they are cost effective to put into product, but I thought I'd bring them up anyway. If money was no object they almost seem like an ideal vitamin E form. Or maybe I'm missing something about them?


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ScottL
(@scottl)
Eminent Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 26
 

Hey guys just noticed this in the write up:

"(Q) There is a warning in the write-up about using VIGOR™ with stimulants. What does this mean?
(A) Your body has a means of metabolizing drugs and toxins, through a collection of various enzymes. Certain extracts present in VIGOR™ can inhibit these enzymes, thereby delaying the rate at which your body can process compounds like stimulants etc. The extract content of VIGOR™ is not hugely significant to cause any major issue, but those more sensitive to stimulants and such may feel slightly more uncomfortable combining the two. If you give it 90 minutes or so after taking VIGOR™, the use of stimulants will be fine.

Noo please tell me you didn't put bioperine in this.

OK what in here inhibits P450? Quercetin?


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Kimbo
(@kimbo)
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I believe it's quercetin.

Vigar + HEAT... wee!!

If someone says something about you, and it really bothers you, it's probably because it's true.


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Robboe
(@robboe)
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Posts: 76
Topic starter  

Correct, the Quercetin may make the use of stims and vigor (within about 30-60 minutes of taking either) unpleasant if the user is sensitive to them.

I've not looked into CYP-interaction of the other components, but they too may inhibit the cytochrome effects. If anyone can pitch in and save me time that'd be great.


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Jeff
 Jeff
(@jeff)
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Joined: 2 years ago
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Posted by: @ScottL
"What is the take home message here?"

We should all take it with our arachadonic acid for some really good gains
I don't know, that's why it was on my request list for spook to write about. If anyone understands this I'd love to hear it.

It didn't seem to be answered...so is it actually bad to take antioxidants post workout now (or just NAC)? What about preworkout? I was always under the assumption that most antioxidants were fine either before or after training, just NAC had to be limited to preworkout use.


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