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bamputin
(@bamputin)
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helping muscular injuries won't do me much good. perhaps it works with tendonitis in areas like shoulders because surrounding muscle mass is more of an issue. my wrist is just skin, bone, and tendons. ice takes care of the swollen muscles there, or so i thought.

still, i'm willing to give it a shot, that is if the nosi treatment doesn't work. that compound pharmacist still hasn't gotten back to me re dosage or making up some pills for me. do you know of any other 'popular' or 'mainstream' nosi, liorrh? one pharmacist mentioned that she had a nosi but it was prescription only medicine.


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liorrh
(@liorrh)
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let me get back to you on that monday. I would start on the glucosamine, stabilzer endurance everyday work and eccentrics immediately.

btw I didnt say what scotl said was incorrect, I jsut said that the ones that talked about joints are unatainable to me so I cant read them and review. all I saw was use for DOMS and such. in large muscles it would be helpfull as DOMS would stall progress, but not in the forearms.

I need the text for these: (all are very old unfortunately). I did search in pubmed and only found those and another in german from the 70's.

4. Bucci, L.R. and Stiles, J.C. Spors injuries and proteolytic enzymes. Today's Chirop. 1987; 16(1):31.
5. Cichoke, A.J. and Marty, L. The use of proteolytic enzymes with soft tissue athletic injuries. Am. Chirop. 1981; Sep/Oct:32.
6. Colgan, Michael. Optimum Sports Nutrition. New York: Advanced Reasearch Press, 1993. p 196.
7. Craig, R.P. The quantitative evaluation of the use of oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of sprained ankles. Injury 1975; 6(4):313.
8. Dietrich, R.E. Oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of athletic injuries: a double-blind study. Penn Med J 1965; 68:35.

if you or anyone can get the full text for me to review it will be great.


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bamputin
(@bamputin)
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couldn't find any of those books online, searched using all of my p2p programs (i have 4). i googled using those references. sifted results:

http://www.pccnaturalmarkets.com/health/Co.../Tendinitis.htm

section on enzyme usage for pain/inflammation relief in tendinitis. very sketchy (like most of the links being made between the two)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=5318158

a pubmed page. i really don't know how to use that system.

http://rep.pharmanex.com/nz/product/proteo...c_enzymes.shtml

reference list for enzymes (clinical studies).

http://www.caromont.org/15986.cfm

therapeutic enzyme usage information page, has sections on enzymes interacting with arthritis

http://www.zytronsports.com/myo%20data.htm

data sheet on a study of proteolytic enzymes being used on a group of footballers

http://yalenewhavenhealth.org/library/heal...hwid=hn-1276004

a 'general' information page, probably containing information you are already aware of. mentions enzymes, gluco/chon, vitamins, etcetera.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt;=Abstract

The quantitative evaluation of the use of oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of sprained ankles. not sure if you can get any useful info out of that, i could only get that page to display an abstract.

http://www.infinity2.info/product/professi...ionals/2209.asp

http://www.infinity2.info/research/pdf/1913.pdf (has a paragraph on a purported mechanism of enzyme - anti inflammatory)


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ScottL
(@scottl)
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I use the infinity product. It is perhaps a little better then wobenzyme (good product, typical MLM company). They only sell to docs though. You might have luck with google.


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bamputin
(@bamputin)
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Topic starter  

can either of you guys recommend a good series of isometrics? i assume by "stabilzer endurance everyday" you mean isometrics, liorrh?


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liorrh
(@liorrh)
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Injury. 1975 May;6(4):313-6. Related Articles, Links 

The quantitative evaluation of the use of oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of sprained ankles.

Craig RP.

A double-blind trial was carried out on 50 patients with soft-tissue ankle injuries. The treated group was given proteolytic enzymes (Chymoral) by mouth while the untreated group was given enteric-coated lactose tablets. Both groups received identical supportive therapy for their injuries. No statistically significant difference in swelling, bruising and function between the 2 groups in the measurements of volume and allied parameters was found. No side effects were noted. The results suggest that the use of Chymoral in this type of injury is not indicated.

OUCH

thats number 7. I'll keep loking for more.

regarding stabilzer endurance, those are exercise for the extensors, flexors, pronators, and forearm flexors (inluding radial flexion). done without pain, high reps. once fatigue sets, isometric "power" gripping (gripping with forearm paralel to palm) should commence, in all angles. this are the guide lines I can give you, and i won;t delve deeper because for that I'll need to see your hand. I feel confident that is enough for you to guide you from here.


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bamputin
(@bamputin)
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update on NOSI's: my main man in the compound pharmacy said he has easy access to l-arginine, but he, like myself, had no idea about an ideal 'starting point', i.e. dosage. i'm not sure where to start looking for the answer to this one. liorrh any suggestions regarding dosage of l-arginine?

here's what i'm doing for wrist isometrics/endurance:

http://devweb3.vip.ohio-state.edu/Material...per/wri-pas.pdf
http://devweb3.vip.ohio-state.edu/Material...per/wri-iso.pdf
http://devweb3.vip.ohio-state.edu/Material...per/wri-act.pdf

(pdf format, ~ 200kb all up)

for eccentrics i'm using a ~5kg barbell. i have a 2kg single handweight i'll be moving up to once/if i get a bit of strength back.

edit: it seems that l-arginine is commonly used for erectile disfunctions, and interstitial cystitis (bladder pain?). interesting. tested dosage for the alleviation of the bladder pain problem (CI) was 500mg, three times a day. 1500mg a day.

found an excellent study of chemically induced tendonitis in rats, and comparison of different anti inflammatory chemical treatments used on the rats L-NAME is mentioned. link:

http://aac.asm.org/cgi/reprint/41/11/2389.pdf

-- pubmed abstract (effects of long term l-arginine use):

-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...9&dopt;=Abstract

(off topic) article about nitric oxide's role in depression. nosi involved in treating depression, too.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/nitricoxide.htm

also, i just had a thought. topical nitroglycerin? worth considering? and one more thing - l-arginine (which you originally listed as an acceptable nosi) actually aids nitric oxide synthesization. is this not technically counterproductive? i'm regretful i never paid more attention in chemistry


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liorrh
(@liorrh)
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Posts: 23
 

nice PDF's

yes, L-NAME is commonly used for that. I didnt find any source for L-NAME myself, so maybe we'll join forces. the only thing I found was curcumin powder at BAC.

lets continue this in PM's.


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ScottL
(@scottl)
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liorrh,

Here you go:

www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=229

The scientific evidence supports the use of proteolytic enzyme supplements for enhancing digestive function and for speeding recovery from injury/surgery and reducing swelling/bruising....As such, the moderate price of most proteolytic enzyme supplements ($10-$30/month) would appear to represent a good value for athletes wishing to enhance recovery from exercise/injury and for patients recovering from surgery.

There are 33 references listed, but only some are relevant to you.


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liorrh
(@liorrh)
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that link you gave me referenced the above research,

Injury. 1975 May;6(4):313-6. The quantitative evaluation of the use of oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of sprained ankles.Craig RP.

which says specifically that The results suggest that the use of Chymoral in this type of injury is not indicated

so the site is selling proteolytinc enzymes. they copy and paste anything reffered to that, apparently not even reading it, as it contradicts what they try to sell.

Unlike them, since our talk I have read dosens of texts about the subject, and still didnt find any indication or hypothesis regarding proteollytic enzymes and joints. I even wrote some emails to some established writers in the field. so, the jury on that is still out there and for now, I have better things to do with my money if I have a sprained ankle. If I will learn otherwise, I'll be sure to post it here.

I will probably give enzymes another shots as DOMS are killing my rehab.


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bamputin
(@bamputin)
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Topic starter  

edited: started a new thread.


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trouble
(@trouble)
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Don't close the door on this thread yet. We got loose ends to deal with.

I'm reading along in this long winded thead....blah blah, long post on NO induction in osteoarthritis (also diabetic state, and possibly rheumatoid artritis as well), when I read,,,

NOS inhibitors...citrulline.

Bullshit. Its a known NOS potentiator, recycling arginine when endogenous levels fall off, and continuing NO signaling in the absence of arginine.

Anyway, the other half of the wonder mix mentioned above is free radical scavening. The damage is done by NO free radical, so curtialing action is one end of the treatment, and free radical mop up the other end.

Now, turns out that regulators of all three NOS genes belong to a family of proteolytic enzymes. I didn't pull up specific references, but its sure appears to me like theres a plausable link here between the wobezyme mix and NO regulation by NOS gene product blockage and NOS product free radical scavening.

Sounds like it would work to me.


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liorrh
(@liorrh)
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Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 23
 
Posted by: @trouble
Don't close the door on this thread yet. We got loose ends to deal with.

I'm reading along in this long winded thead....blah blah, long post on NO induction in osteoarthritis (also diabetic state, and possibly rheumatoid artritis as well), when I read,,,

NOS inhibitors...citrulline.

Bullshit. Its a known NOS potentiator, recycling arginine when endogenous levels fall off, and continuing NO signaling in the absence of arginine.

Anyway, the other half of the wonder mix mentioned above is free radical scavening. The damage is done by NO free radical, so curtialing action is one end of the treatment, and free radical mop up the other end.

Now, turns out that regulators of all three NOS genes belong to a family of proteolytic enzymes. I didn't pull up specific references, but its sure appears to me like theres a plausable link here between the wobezyme mix and NO regulation by NOS gene product blockage and NOS product free radical scavening.

Sounds like it would work to me.

T - you got to quote stuff when you answer to a long, old thread - i can't quite gather what you are tlking about. I'm interested in your opionon and the subject.

PS I've sent you an email, not sure if you got it.


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trouble
(@trouble)
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1. the injury type is a repetitive motion aggravated inflammatory response. Your 1975 sprained ankle citation is irrelevant here, wrong condition - thats a single episode strain/tear injury.

2. As has been pointed out in this thread, the cause is excessive NO release and local tissue free radical damage.

3. Excess local NO release also includes regulatory issues.

4. It appears that one of two types of regulatory proteins belongs to a class of proteolytic enzymes.

5. The wobezyme clearly has a. NO scavengers and b. proteolytic enzymes that may assist in site specific down regulation of excess NOS.

6. YOU posted a journal citation that has the curious inclusion of citrulline in the list of NOS antagonists. I questioned its inclusion, mostly because I wouldn't want someone dosing themselves with a known stimulator of all three NOS isoforms


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Jinx Me
(@jinx-me)
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I suppose this is somewhat off topic, but have you tried acupuncture? I found electroacupuncture very effective for an ankle injury. Also, I used hydrotherapy - basically get a few buckets, one filled with hot water and the other with cold, and put your wrist in the hot for 3 minutes or less, then the cold for 1 minute or less. Alternate 3 or 4 times each, and finish with cold. You can also just use running water if you don't have buckets. It seems hokey, but it works amazingly well, and it's free. It just takes a bit of time.

And I assume you're taking some natural anti-inflammatories like fish oil, maybe borage oil, bromelain, curcumin, etc.?

Kicking ass is my comfort food


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