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coreyx
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I'm confused about this. Some say a calorie is a calorie and it doesn't matter at all what you eat as long as you don't eat too many calories. But I have a hard time believing this. I cannot imagine that it doesn't make any difference at all wether I'm on a cut and get my calories in a clean way or wether I only eat junk food all day and still stay below maintenance.

What happens for example if I start my day with a junk food feast where I already consume all calories which I am allowed to eat and this means for the rest of the day I will have to burn body fat? Does the body burn body fat as effectively as he burns food? Does this mean at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you eat all calories at once in the form of junk food or wether you have 4 clean meals spreat throughout the day?


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ShuffleUp
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Posted by: @coreyx
I'm confused about this. Some say a calorie is a calorie and it doesn't matter at all what you eat as long as you don't eat too many calories. But I have a hard time believing this. I cannot imagine that it doesn't make any difference at all wether I'm on a cut and get my calories in a clean way or wether I only eat junk food all day and still stay below maintenance.

What happens for example if I start my day with a junk food feast where I already consume all calories which I am allowed to eat and this means for the rest of the day I will have to burn body fat? Does the body burn body fat as effectively as he burns food? Does this mean at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you eat all calories at once in the form of junk food or wether you have 4 clean meals spreat throughout the day?

I'm by no means expert on this, but I think the phrase "a calorie is a calorie" is too simplistic without proper context. I think what you're saying is something to the effect of "If I ate a box of oreos all at once to get all of my calories necessary in a day, is that as good as eating the same number of calories with rationalized macronutrient profiles and proper spread and timing throughout the day?" The answer is, no.

Now, I'll let those more in the know help you get closer to the latter than the former, in the example above.


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Jinx Me
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All calories are not created equal. Eating healthy, and manipulating macronutrients, can actually allow you to eat more calories without getting fat. But that said, just because you eat healthy doesn't mean you won't get fat. You can still get fat on healthy food. Olive oil's healthy, but it's still a pure fat.

Also, your body can't repair without protein. If you at 3600 calories of oreos a day, you'll get fat, but good luck building muscle when you're not ingesting any protein. Your blood sugar will be all over the place, you'll feel like crap, you won't want to work out, you won't have the proper energy to get a good workout, and you won't be getting what you need to recover from your workout.

If you eat 1200 calories of oreos a day, same deal, but you won't be fat. You'll just be weak and sickly.

Kicking ass is my comfort food


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SupremeDan
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A calorie is not a calorie simply because each macronutrient will have many other effects on the body speacially when it comes to hormone profiles.

Speacially when we talk about fats. each FA will have different effects on the body speacially when it comes to regulating membrane permiability and Genetic trancription.

if we talk short term( e.g. 1meal or 1 day ) a calorie will be a calorie yes...but when we talk long term each macronutrient will have itīs effects on hormonal, neurotranmitters a genetic parameters. and we know that this parameters are the main messengers in our body.

About GI i wouldnīt really bother about that. I would bother on getting carbs with other micronutrients, minerals, fibers and phytochemicals instead. so instead of pumping dextrose, sugar or other carbs that are nutrient free it will be much healthier long term pumping on foods with lots of nutrients. Basically GI donīt matter, speacially because in most meals we eat some fat and protein together wich changes the whole GI picture. what matters is the bennefits this carb calories will bring with it. There is many studies showing no really difference beteween high GI vs low GI groups of healthy people on insulin levels , weight gain and so on.

I would bother on waching the fats we eat sinse fats are the nutrients that will have the biggeest impact in your body composition, hormone profiles, membrane homeostasis and fluidity, and many other aspects. Fats are the master nutrients when it comes to controlling health and body composition.

Proteins would come in second....allso really important in the process of hormone peptides and giving your body the essencials to build tissues.

carbs should be the less of the worries. if you are getting your protein requirements and your fats right there should be no worrie on wich type of carb you are getting sinse this should make no real difference on hormonal parameters ( e.g. insulin ) and body composition.

just make sure you are not getting too much fat sinse any extra fat is stored easilly. In bulking you can go as low as 15% of nutrients coming from fat that you will still be getting enough fat sinse you will be hypercaloric meaning that 15% will be lots of fat anyways. cutting you should go at higher porcentages...20-30% sinse calories are low and you need that trancription process fats do to burn your stored fats. with out this trancriptions burning stored fat will be basically a bich!!


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virtualcyber
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A calorie is a calorie when it comes to WEIGHT. Studies have confirmed this repeatedly.

However, when it comes LBM, a calorie is not just a calorie, depending on what you eat.

Ji-Yong David Chung


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rock_ten
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Posted by: @SupremeDan
just make sure you are not getting too much fat sinse any extra fat is stored easilly. In bulking you can go as low as 15% of nutrients coming from fat that you will still be getting enough fat sinse you will be hypercaloric meaning that 15% will be lots of fat anyways. cutting you should go at higher porcentages...20-30% sinse calories are low and you need that trancription process fats do to burn your stored fats. with out this trancriptions burning stored fat will be basically a bich!!

damn it, Dan, stop making me keep changing my mind about how best to eat when hypercaloric!

low carb, high fat or vice-versa. Theres serious and passionate supporters of each


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Jinx Me
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Posted by: @virtualcyber
A calorie is a calorie when it comes to WEIGHT. Studies have confirmed this repeatedly.

However, when it comes LBM, a calorie is not just a calorie, depending on what you eat.

yeah.... that's what I meant to say. Only it took me about 20 more sentences to make the same point!

Kicking ass is my comfort food


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Jinx Me
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Posted by: @rock_ten
damn it, Dan, stop making me keep changing my mind about how best to eat when hypercaloric!

low carb, high fat or vice-versa. Theres serious and passionate supporters of each

Just eat clean, keep your calories low enough, and get enough protein. Eating low fat can make things easier because you tend to be able to eat a bit more volume while remaining hypocaloric. Personally, I'll be trying to eat very low carb and higher fat the next time I cut (with carb refeeds). I think this approach can work well, as long as carbs are low enough, because then your body adapts to burning ingested fats rather than storing them.

Kicking ass is my comfort food


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rock_ten
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Posted by: @Jinx Me
Just eat clean, keep your calories low enough, and get enough protein. Eating low fat can make things easier because you tend to be able to eat a bit more volume while remaining hypocaloric. Personally, I'll be trying to eat very low carb and higher fat the next time I cut (with carb refeeds). I think this approach can work well, as long as carbs are low enough, because then your body adapts to burning ingested fats rather than storing them.

I seem to remember reading somewhere recently a mention of high-fat having little further effect on fat-burning than the simple displacement of carbs in the diet, and therefore the reduction of their multitude of lipogenic or at least anti-lipolytic effects. This may be short-term, only, though, and long-term adaptation may lead to far greater burning perhaps.

I still believe fully in high-fat/low-carb cutting. Gaining, though, such a confusion. If I manage to lose a bit of fat in the next week or two (unlikely) I'll start gaining again. Strictly no starch except post-significant-workouts. Much higher protein than I have used before (possibly Ill go with 3-400g), and rather limited veg consumption, since I easily spend 500cals on veg in one meal. And I'll try to keep cals at about 3000 with a fairly accurate modifcation according to activity levels. Mostly NEPA like walking. Over 100 cals per mile, score!

--Joe


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fitnecise
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Posted by: @SupremeDan
just make sure you are not getting too much fat sinse any extra fat is stored easilly. In bulking you can go as low as 15% of nutrients coming from fat that you will still be getting enough fat sinse you will be hypercaloric meaning that 15% will be lots of fat anyways. cutting you should go at higher porcentages...20-30% sinse calories are low and you need that trancription process fats do to burn your stored fats. with out this trancriptions burning stored fat will be basically a bich!!

Good points, is there any reason it couldn't go even higher as long as enough fiber is consumed? Mainly saturated fat and even monounsaturated fat is positively correlated with Testosterone production which I am sure you know. Seems like on a cut you would want to go very high with saturated fats to retain as much muscle as you can.

"An interesting 1987 study put men on a high-fat (about 50 percent of calories from fat) for 2 weeks, then had them switch to a low-fat diet (about 10 percent fat) for 2 weeks. Their free testosterone-the part that's available for use in building muscle-dropped 21 percent on the low-fat diet" (Schuler, p.86).


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SupremeDan
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Posted by: @fitnecise
Good points, is there any reason it couldn't go even higher as long as enough fiber is consumed? Mainly saturated fat and even monounsaturated fat is positively correlated with testosterone production which I am sure you know. Seems like on a cut you would want to go very high with saturated fats to retain as much muscle as you can.

"An interesting 1987 study put men on a high-fat (about 50 percent of calories from fat) for 2 weeks, then had them switch to a low-fat diet (about 10 percent fat) for 2 weeks. Their free testosterone-the part that's available for use in building muscle-dropped 21 percent on the low-fat diet" (Schuler, p.86).

yea fats are important for Testosterone levels but up to a certain level. MORE wonīt mean more testosterone.

Fats differ from protein and carbs in the sense that they are ligands for many transcription factors that control cholesterol byosynthesis, hormone levels, mithochondia work capacity, lipogenic enzymes and many other metabolic pathways in the body. Fats ar allso a huge factor on membrane permeabiltty and maleabillity and infflmattion status of a system.

when we start eating too many calories from fat we will certainlly enter a state of infflamattion and transcriptions telling your body to store fat. such infflamation status may lead to many fuked up things like insulin resistence, low testoesterone levels and etc. Eating ABOVE maitainence is allready a agression to the body. eating lots of food like in a bulking cycle puts us in a infflameted state. chronic infflamation is related to aging, sickness, metabolic problems and etc. eating high cals plus high fats is certainlly a good way to put you in a high infflamtion and fat storing status.

what we want is to consume the right amount and ratio of fats to keep our genetic trancriptions going for the fat burning side, testosterone levels intact and infflamattion status low. so basically what we want is enough omega 3s, 6s, 9s, monos, sat fats, phospholipids to keep our homeostasis running.

when we bulking we allready getting loads of cals so there is no need to go high fat sinse we will probably be getting enough fats to keep everything running. the higher you go on cals the less % of your diet should come from fats to avoid the storing fats and infflamtion mode. the less calories you eat the more% of your diet should come from fats. this is done so the genetic trancriptions, membrane homeostasis and etc are not shut down.

so if we want to have the best of the best on cutting and bulking we oughta manipulate the fats.

Higher the cals, lower the% from fat
lower the cals, higher the % from fat

this is why highe fat/high protein cutting is so effective...not because of reduced carbs or anything, but because you keep your trancriptions going on.
and this is why dirty bulkings allways tend to make one fat.....to many cals comming from fat. no good.

I go as far as stating that FATS are our ENDOCRINE MASTER KEYS.

this is actually what my masters grade piece will be about.


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SupremeDan
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Posted by: @rock_ten
damn it, Dan, stop making me keep changing my mind about how best to eat when hypercaloric!

low carb, high fat or vice-versa. Theres serious and passionate supporters of each

whoever supports high fat bulking is totally unfiormed or has serius metabolic problems e.g. dieabetes.

moderate fat bulking is ok...high fat bulkin...no way


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rock_ten
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Posted by: @SupremeDan
whoever supports high fat bulking is totally unfiormed or has serius metabolic problems e.g. dieabetes.

moderate fat bulking is ok...high fat bulkin...no way

This isn't an issue i'm going to be satisfied with for a long time yet, I imagine. I better get home and go to bed now, though - no more reading tonight. Dan - if you have any relevant links, articles, or best of all, discussions (threads etc) about low-carb bulking v. high-carb bulking, I'd very much like to see them.

When I think of "low-carb" bulking I'm thinking of 'carbs' (grains, milk, high-carb veg) post-workout (because I can), and the rest of the time almost entirely protein/fat, with some veg. Perhaps what Berardi seems to recommend these days, infact.

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SupremeDan
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Posted by: @rock_ten
This isn't an issue i'm going to be satisfied with for a long time yet, I imagine. I better get home and go to bed now, though - no more reading tonight. Dan - if you have any relevant links, articles, or best of all, discussions (threads etc) about low-carb bulking v. high-carb bulking, I'd very much like to see them.

When I think of "low-carb" bulking I'm thinking of 'carbs' (grains, milk, high-carb veg) post-workout (because I can), and the rest of the time almost entirely protein/fat, with some veg. Perhaps what Berardi seems to recommend these days, infact.

let me just refrain....MODERATE FAT BULKING is ok!! up to 30% cals coming from fat is ok in a bulking...when you start going above this is where you have problems.

But i am still a great believer of a bulking diet with a good ammount of carbs coming from whole sourses, veggies and fruits,
just look at the best physics out there....the certainly didnīt bulk on low carbs.

PS: anybody that says that our ancestrals back in cave time didnīt eat a diet based on carbs is right....but i ask you...DID they lift weights to get big??? did they wanna look like frank zane or whoever?? nope.....

i am a firm biliever that anybody that is sedentary should keep their carb intake allways at minimum possible...only comming from veggies and some fruits and nuts. now when you want to build muscle to get big ......putting your body in a unatural process of building unnecessary muscle..,,then the diet regimem should be adapted to your training....

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rock_ten
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Posted by: @SupremeDan
let me just refrain....MODERATE FAT BULKING is ok!! up to 30% cals coming from fat is ok in a bulking...when you start going above this is where you have problems.

But i am still a great believer of a bulking diet with a good ammount of carbs coming from whole sourses, veggies and fruits,
just look at the best physics out there....the certainly didnīt bulk on low carbs.

PS: anybody that says that our ancestrals back in cave time didnīt eat a diet based on carbs is right....but i ask you...DID they lift weights to get big??? did they wanna look like frank zane or whoever?? nope.....

i am a firm biliever that anybody that is sedentary should keep their carb intake allways at minimum possible...only comming from veggies and some fruits and nuts. now when you want to build muscle to get big ......putting your body in a unatural process of building unnecessary muscle..,,then the diet regimem should be adapted to your training....

Do you advise significant carbs "all the time" or just during post-workout hours? A general outline of your favoured diet would be useful I suppose. Also what protein intakes do you think are neccessary? Perhaps higher protein diets require less dietry carbs due to increased gluconeogenesis and their own insulinogenic effects.

A point that Discus Lifter makes on the thread linked above at IA is that protein's insulinogenic effect is different to a carb-mediated one in that the latter promotes fat storage by other mechanisms too. The latest M&M issue has the article on SREBP-1 proteins, including

"In fact, high glucose levels attained through high carbohydrate diets can positively augment SREBP-1c activity independent of insulin"

I look forward to the next installment which "will discuss how one can utilize several different nutrition and supplementation techniques to keep SREBP-1c in check."

I suppose that individual differences have great effects on what macronutrient ratios should best be employed. Do you have any other threads where this is discussed, dude?

Thanks

--Joe


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