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first cycle: Test-E: PCT and aromatase control ???

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(@pound4pound)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 5
Topic starter  

What are your thoughts on this, it was suggested to me because I want to avoid clomid AND i already have gyno.

test-E: 500mg/week, weeks 1-12
HCG: 500iu 2x/week, weeks 1-11
1500iu 2x/week, week 12
500iu e3d, weeks 13-14
aromasin: 25mg ed, weeks 13-18

What I haven't figured out is if I want to run Aromasin or Arimidex ON cycle. Any opinions?


   
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DBolMan
(@dbolman)
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If you are going to run the hCG on cycle, then I would do 250iu every 3-4 days. According to the Crisler hCG Protocol, you should take 250iu 2 days before and 2 days after your Testosterone IM injection. (I will post a copy of the report below.) 3 weeks after your last Testosterone IM injection, take 1500iu hCG, followed by two more 1500iu doses spaced 3-4 days apart. After that cease the hCG treatment. You do not want to overdo it! As far as on cycle anti-aromatase, I would say you could go with either or when it comes to Arimidex or Aromasin. I'm finishing off a cycle where I was taking Arimidex and had no gyno problems! (I had gyno surgery on both sides in March, so I'm very cautious). I was taking 750mg test per week, so you should be fine. I think I am going to take Aromasin my next bulking cycle because I have read that the estrogen rebound is not near as bad as with that when coming off of Arimidex. Continue taking the Arimidex or Aromasin for the 3 weeks after your last Testosterone IM injection. In addition, take it during the first week of for higher hCG administration. Along with that, start taking Nolvadex that first week of higher hCG administration. Continue to take the Nolvadex for 4 weeks. I would recommend 20mg/day the first two weeks and then 10mg/day the last two weeks. This seems to be working very very well for me right now and I have not lost any of my gains in size or strength. I have been off cycle for 5 weeks now and have been in my PCT for 2 weeks. I am also taking Clomid, which I would recommend, but this PCT schedule should be sufficient. DO NOT take Arimidex or Aromasin throughout your PCT cycle! When I was taking it on cycle, I was taking .5mg every day, which most said was overkill, but after having gyno surgery and not wanting to ever have to do that again, I found it worked well and kept my paranoia to a minimum as far as if I feel a lump, if it's itchy, etc. I would have driven myself crazy at a lower dose or at no dose at all!

Here's that article:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.


   
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(@pound4pound)
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Joined: 3 years ago
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Topic starter  

Isn't the active half-life of enanthate like 10.5 days? So shouldn't PCT be started 2 weeks after the last injection, not 3? (I forgot to add that in my week numbering in my first post).

Why do you say NOT to take arimidex or aromasin during PCT?


   
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DBolMan
(@dbolman)
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You can start PCT 2 weeks after your last shot, but I chose 3 because I had taken EQ with it. Either 2 or 3 weeks will be sufficient.

Arimidex should not be used post cycle because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground, and we don't want that, do we?).

If you overlap the Arimidex with the Nolvadex, then your estrogen levels will be kept in check. On cycle, there is more test to be converted into estrogen, so Arimidex would be more of a necessity if you're sensitive to estrogen. However, post-cycle, during PCT, you natural testosterone levels are being restored which range from 2-11mg per day. The estrogen conversion will be significantly lower with your natural testosterone range, therefore Nolvadex (and Clomid if you include this in the mix) will be sufficient at combating estrogen while increasing LH production. In addition, there is no estrogen rebound when discontinuing the Nolvadex. There is estrogen rebound when discontinuing Arimidex. By switching over to Nolvadex you will be fighting estrogen from the rebound. If you decided to use Arimidex during PCT along with hCG, then you will have nothing to fight the rebound of estrogen.


   
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Tadger
(@tadger)
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Posts: 65
 

DBolMan was right on (except the whole estrogen rebound thing actually existing... but that's not the point).

P4P, the halflife of enanthate is slightly less than 10 days (right around 7). Either way, I'd give it about 3 weeks myself. I'd avoid the anti-aromatases during PCT... dropping estrogen levels too much will also inhibit recovery. DB's advice is sound.... you're good to go.


   
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