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What constitutes an "all natural"

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(@tlow4u)
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Posted by: @str8flexed
I think most people that say they are natural and compete probably are.  There are some cheaters for sure, but I look at it this way... there is very little money in natural bodybuilding & very little recognition... If you feel you need to cheat just to feel better about yourself then I'm glad I'm not you lol.

OK, the lack of big bucks would be a big factor in keeping everyone honest. Conversely given the risk/reward ratio in big dollar sports, I'd be genuinley surprised to learn that someone who could benefit from a "banned" substance would not employ them.

Given the nature of the natural scene, an ill-gotten would be hollow indeed. Good point that such a person's character would result in their own downfall.

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(@tlow4u)
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Posted by: @Supnut
And its another facet of the arguement. Is being gifted geneticaly any more fair then being gifted with a mysterious gel from your trainer? You didn't earn either now did you.

This reminds me of something I read on a track and field forum once. Two elite runners mated presumbly resulting in offspring with a heavily stacked genetic deck so to speak. Couple this with a child raised in a fitness and athletic/running home environment... wowza.

Conversely, it's funny to think how to level the playing field here. You would have to have dozens of genetic clones raised in a draconian controlled environment.

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(@mechaman)
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Interestingly, in motorsports it is more feasible to ensure a level playing field. There are spec fuels (i.e. everyone gets their gas from the race officials) and all competitors are subject to a complete engine teardown at any time. Even with these elaborate controls, there is always talk/suspision of cheating, especially if someone is doing well. Of course human life and the human body are vastly more complex so such fairness controls are impossible.

Good point. You can't tear down an athlete after a meet to see what he's been using; the closest we can get is piss and blood tests. I like the motorsports analogy, because I remember an incident in NASCAR involving Rusty Wallace's team -- they'd put titanium roof flaps on the car, and the NASCAR techs said it was not 'cheating', but fined them anyway because the lighter material was seen as an unfair advantage, even though the rules didn't say the flaps had to be the same metal as the body. I'd say 'all natural' means no exogenous anabolics, and leave it at that.

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(@swingguru)
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Posted by: @Supnut
Do any of the orgs look at blood levels? I think I've read that natural test levels have a wide average but still, if you are able to compete and have zero test something is amiss and likewise if you have super high test something is amiss. Sounds like a resonable way to at least isolate individuals that need to be looked at closer. This would perhaps be more pertinent to sports where you'd want to use the stuff during the competition like say androgenics during wrestlling.

There would of course be natural variences like Lance's larger heart which will always cast shadows.
"is that the only reason he wins" "it's almost unfair" yadda yadda

And its another facet of the arguement. Is being gifted geneticaly any more fair then being gifted with a mysterious gel from your trainer? You didn't earn either now did you.

By far the best post on the subject yet. Whether or not earned, genetics prevails in the end, whether in a natural competition or a juiced one.

It does kill me every time a good physique comes along people think the guy is juicing. There are good naturals out there, and gear isn't required given the mesomorphic phenotype.

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str8flexed
(@str8flexed)
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hard to believe he was able to keep a straight face

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Limitations are for people that have them and excuses are for people that need them.

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(@green-man)
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Just a thought,

I did a few courses of steroids about 10 years ago. Nothing major, just some Anavar & Dbol'>D-bol. I'm needle-phobic son no injectibles. Altogether I gained about 15 pounds of lean & probably kept about half of it.

Do I count as natural ? I'd certainly pass a drug test, but it could be argued that some of the gains have remained & not everything on my body is the result of natural gains.


   
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(@kethnaab)
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Posted by: @Green Man
Just a thought,

I did a few courses of steroids about 10 years ago.  Nothing major, just some anavar & d-bol.  I'm needle-phobic son no injectibles.  Altogether I gained about 15 pounds of lean & probably kept about half of it.

Do I count as natural ?  I'd certainly pass a drug test, but it could be argued that some of the gains have remained & not everything on my body is the result of natural gains.

isn't there some type of time limit, i.e. "if you haven't juiced in the last 10 years" or something?

either way, that sure is open to interpretation

FWIW, my opinion is that if you have used an "anabolic", i.e. prohormone/steroids, GH, insulin, IGF, or any of the following fat loss items and/or their relations - synephrine, ephedrine, t3, clen, DNP, yohimbine...

then you aren't natural. the steroids/GH/IGF thing should be pretty much a lifetime thing. prohormones aren't nearly that strong, and the fat loss stuff...well....it's real easy to get fat, so if there is a time limit, i would think it would be shorter.

just my (worthless) $0.02

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(@kethnaab)
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Posted by: @Green Man
Just a thought,

I did a few courses of steroids about 10 years ago.  Nothing major, just some anavar & d-bol.  I'm needle-phobic son no injectibles.  Altogether I gained about 15 pounds of lean & probably kept about half of it.

Do I count as natural ?  I'd certainly pass a drug test, but it could be argued that some of the gains have remained & not everything on my body is the result of natural gains.

isn't there some type of time limit, i.e. "if you haven't juiced in the last 10 years" or something?

either way, that sure is open to interpretation

FWIW, my opinion is that if you have used an "anabolic", i.e. prohormone/steroids, GH, insulin, IGF, or any of the following fat loss items and/or their relations - synephrine, ephedrine, t3, clen, DNP, yohimbine...

then you aren't natural. the steroids/GH/IGF thing should be pretty much a lifetime thing. prohormones aren't nearly that strong, and the fat loss stuff...well....it's real easy to get fat, so if there is a time limit, i would think it would be shorter.

just my (worthless) $0.02

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str8flexed
(@str8flexed)
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the longest required drug free length in bodybuilding organizations is the BNBF (the amatuer version of the WNBF in britain) & they have a 10 year ban. Ideally it would be lifetime, but I understand that some people experiment when they are young and if they truly comit themselves to being natural the rest of their lives, they shouldn't be punished there entire life for it by not being allowed to compete.

-Layne

Limitations are for people that have them and excuses are for people that need them.

"Per Ferrum, ad astra"... Through iron, the stars
- Mel Siff

Bitch smacking pseudo-scientists since 2010.


   
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(@ben_s)
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Layne,

Correct me if im wrong...but here in the UK the NPA (Natural Physique Assosciation) has a lifetime natural requirement/ban if caught, though it's testing procedures are less than adequate IMO and need to be up to scratch with BNBF standard.

Ben


   
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str8flexed
(@str8flexed)
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Not sure ben, could be... to be honest i haven't looked at the NPA.

-Layne

Limitations are for people that have them and excuses are for people that need them.

"Per Ferrum, ad astra"... Through iron, the stars
- Mel Siff

Bitch smacking pseudo-scientists since 2010.


   
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 bran
(@bran)
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Thats exactly right Ben, NPA is natural for life, BNBF natural for 10 years.


   
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(@uechiryucrane)
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I think that natural means no use of body altering chemicals in levels beyond the body's normal limit.

For example: Using Testosterone to increasing building abilities. But not whey protein because the body has no normal level of protein. maybe?

I dunno just a thought. lol


   
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(@mitosis)
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After using drugs your HPTA is never the same....

So in theory, you are "less then natural" after drug use, so I guess once you pop, you will always be unnatural whether thats in a bad or good way.


   
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(@supplementkings)
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Posted by: @Mitosis
After using drugs your HPTA is never the same....

So in theory, you are "less then natural" after drug use, so I guess once you pop, you will always be unnatural whether thats in a bad or good way.

Exactly.


   
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