is this a tried and true PCT method?

Doesnt it depend on the compound being ran and for how long.

Bump?

I'd go for Swifto's PCT:

Thats correct, but a little outdated.

My PCT:

wk 1-6 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 14 days)
wk 1-6 Tamox 20mg/ED
*Trib Sopharma 1g/ED
*Ashwagandha RE 2g/ED
*DAA

You can switch out the Tore frontload for 40mg/ED Tamox if you wish and use 60m/ED Tore all the way through.

Posted by: @makeitmethylated

↑

i read on Steroid Forums that its better to use clomid, nolva and adex in your PCT, because different drugs affect different tissues

heres the link

https://forums.steroid.com/pct-post-cycle-therapy/94626-pheednos-pct.html

is this a better way to do PCT?

i wanna hear from HeavyIron

I think you'll find people coming down on different sides of this issue. Very generally, having a SERM (there are several) and an AI are the "must haves". What type of SERM or AI, and any additional compounds added in, is where I have seen the differences in opinion.

I agree with the above. I have used Clomid and Novla since...well, since they were the only things you could use. Never had a problem. Now I might add some AI, but usually not. I have found SARMs to be very helpful in keeping gains at low doses (-50 mgs) during PCT. However, I must admit I've never done blood work after using SARMs in PCT, only C&N--and again, worked great.

just my 2 cents

Ronn

I will probably used clomid, Nolva, Adex and ostarine for my next PCT

What about people saying Nolva is counter-productive cause it lowers igf-1 levels?

Posted by: @makeitmethylated

↑

I will probably used clomid, Nolva, Adex and ostarine for my next PCT

Nolva does reduce IGF-1 production. It diminishes the hypertrophic response. This lowering effect is one of the reasons for the use of Nolva to help with breast cancer. Breast cancer cells are responsive to IGF-1 (IGF-1 makes them grow) hence the use for breast cancer.

Posted by: @dath

↑

Nolva does reduce IGF-1 production. It diminishes the hypertrophic response. This lowering effect is one of the reasons for the use of Nolva to help with breast cancer. Breast cancer cells are responsive to IGF-1 (IGF-1 makes them grow) hence the use for breast cancer.

Isn't that counter productive?

I've heard it's counter productive but never by anyone very knowledgable I like u never get a straight answer o. Thus one first couple cycles I ran Nolva and clomid last couple just clomid and aromasin worked fine but clomid made me see lightning

Clomid does that to some people.
Re: IGF-1 I'm a bit out of the loop, is the research done on lowered IGF-1 levels with the administration of Novla done on rates or people? Novla is, of course, considered more potent at estrogen blocking than clomid mg for mg, but cloimd supposedly better at stimulating the hpta cycle back into gear. Now, I've read a paper that said cloimd can increase serum free test by 400% at 100 mgs daily. Jurried paper from a reputable journal (though found on the internet--so...). My actual experience doing blood work from Lab Corp was about a 40%-50% increase. I've read virtually the same thing about novla (but I've not blood test to bear that out). Likewise, a simple search will reveal studies that prove clomid and novla do little if anything to increase test via an hpta response. So, I'm sure sure there actually is a definitive answer.

However, it should be noted that the default drug given to men with low free test is Clomid (at least with the doctors I and three of my friends in two different states).

For me, I tend to stick with studies done on Humans (as both Clomid and Novla should since they are already FDA approved) and look for who did it (Un. of Cal. vs Un of nowhere-land in a country only the UN has heard of). Likewise, was there a test group and did the study have valide parameters (like six weeks vrs 6 days, meaningful "real world doese' or hyper or hypo doses, etc.)

But back to PCT, I've often used only cloimd if I'm running low aromatizing (sp?) agents, but use novla if I have any fears of gyno (which novla is better at preventing). As a side not, I've run IGF-1 during a cycle and have found virtually not shrinkage--not sure why but interesting.

Further thoughts?

Ronn

Clomid does that to some people.
Re: IGF-1 I'm a bit out of the loop, is the research done on lowered IGF-1 levels with the administration of Novla done on rates or people? Novla is, of course, considered more potent at estrogen blocking than clomid mg for mg, but cloimd supposedly better at stimulating the hpta cycle back into gear. Now, I've read a paper that said cloimd can increase serum free test by 400% at 100 mgs daily. Jurried paper from a reputable journal (though found on the internet--so...). My actual experience doing blood work from Lab Corp was about a 40%-50% increase. I've read virtually the same thing about novla (but I've not blood test to bear that out). Likewise, a simple search will reveal studies that prove clomid and novla do little if anything to increase test via an hpta response. So, I'm sure sure there actually is a definitive answer.

However, it should be noted that the default drug given to men with low free test is Clomid (at least with the doctors I and three of my friends in two different states).

For me, I tend to stick with studies done on Humans (as both Clomid and Novla should since they are already FDA approved) and look for who did it (Un. of Cal. vs Un of nowhere-land in a country only the UN has heard of). Likewise, was there a test group and did the study have valide parameters (like six weeks vrs 6 days, meaningful "real world doese' or hyper or hypo doses, etc.)

But back to PCT, I've often used only cloimd if I'm running low aromatizing (sp?) agents, but use novla if I have any fears of gyno (which novla is better at preventing). As a side not, I've run IGF-1 during a cycle and have found virtually not shrinkage--not sure why but interesting.

Further thoughts?

Ronn

Ronn, nice to see someone doing their homework. If I could rep you again I would. OP, I really think that if you are running adex and clomid, there is no reason to add nolva to this mix. I don't have enough info to accurately comment on nolva and IGF-1, but If you are concerned about gyno, the adex should keep your E2 low enough that it shouldn't be an issue. Also, like Ronn said, the research suggests that clomid is better for restarting the HPTA

Just some additional reading material on the topic bros, I'm not gonna pretend to understand it all lol but some insight none the less.

Heres a link referring to strictly women cancer patients and nolva's effects. Mainly posted this for reference to IGF levels

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/49/7/1882.full.pdf

Here's an additional study with a quick summary.

Gender difference in the neuroendocrine regulation of growth hormone axis by selective estrogen receptor modulators.

Authors

Birzniece V, et al. Show all ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22319035/#)Journal

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Apr;97(4):E521-7. Epub 2012 Feb 8.
Affiliation

Garvan Institute of Medical Research, Darlinghurst, New South Wales 2010, Australia.

Abstract

CONTEXT: In men, GH secretion is stimulated by estradiol derived locally from aromatization of testosterone. Recently, we showed that local estrogen also plays a major role in the central regulation of GH secretion in women. Tamoxifen and raloxifene are selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), drugs that block central estrogen action but exert estrogen-like effects in the liver, inhibiting hepatic IGF-I production. The relative impact of SERMs on the GH-IGF-I axis in men and women has not been investigated.
OBJECTIVE: The aim of the study was to determine whether there is a gender difference in the impact of SERMs on the GH-IGF-I axis.
DESIGN: We conducted a comparative, randomized, open-label, crossover study of tamoxifen and raloxifene.
PATIENTS AND INTERVENTION: Ten healthy postmenopausal women and ten healthy men were randomized to 2-wk sequential treatment with tamoxifen (10 and 20 mg/d) and raloxifene (60 and 120 mg/d) with a washout of 2 wk between treatments.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The GH response to arginine, IGF-I, testosterone, and SHBG was measured.
RESULTS: In women, but not in men, tamoxifen significantly attenuated the GH response to arginine. The GH response was not significantly blunted by raloxifene in both sexes. Both SERMs significantly reduced mean IGF-I levels to a similar degree in men and women. In men, both SERMs significantly increased LH and testosterone levels.
CONCLUSIONS: In summary, GH secretion was blunted by tamoxifen in women in the face of reduced IGF-I feedback inhibition but not in men in whom the gonadal axis was stimulated. We conclude that potential blunting of GH secretion in men by SERMs was counteracted by concomitant central stimulation of GH secretion by testosterone. In therapeutic doses, tamoxifen may induce detrimental metabolic effects in women, but not men.

PMID

22319035 (tel:22319035) [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Full text: HighWire Press ( http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=22319035)

Related Citations

Show all ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22319035/related/)

I see we're getting to the classic nolva v clomid debate

I see we're getting to the classic nolva v clomid debate

We want answers aha